[ [ Reproduced and web-published with the permission of the creator of [ drivefar.org [ [ Email addresses have been obfuscated to resist harvesting by spambots [ -----Original Message----- From: Cyrus Yunker [mailto:cy______d.org] Sent: Tuesday, 2 May 2006 5:08 AM To: inf____ivefar.org Subject: issues w/ website content I have a few points I wanted to mention regarding your http://www.drivefar.org/techniques.htm page. [Change to Neutral] [Don't use your engine as a break] Both of these suggestions I believe to based on incomplete knowledge of modern vehicle engines. While for many engines of yesteryear the assumption that fuel consumption rises with RPM may be true, modern fuel injected engines are much smarter. While there may be some truth to this, the danger and break pad wear in suggesting that people move to neutral when going down hills, does not compensate for the minuscule reduction in fuel use. I have not designed any of these systems I am about to discuss but am merely suggesting you do some more research for the purposes of educating the public. Please consider joining some online forums where these issues are discussed or having a conversation with a few mechanics or long time drivers - or engine fuel system designers. Fuel injected engines are able to modulate fuel consumption based on engine load (amongst a multitude of other parameters), not merely to regulate the speed of the engine, as a lawnmower might. While the car is being pulled down a hill by gravity, engine load is actually negative and fuel consumption is very very low. It may, for some reason, be higher than at idle speed but moving to neutral while going down a hill can be very dangerous for many reasons. The wear and tear on an automatic transmission vehicle, going in and out of neutral and requiring major synchronization compensations within the gearbox, would surely not be worth the cost or hassle of potential repairs over fuel savings. While I realize this site states the techniques are primarily for manual transmission vehicles, the loss of control and hazard to other motorists I would argue are also not worth the potential fuel savings. Moving to neutral and going down a hill requires that a vehicle must not only rely purely on the wheel breaks for maintaining speed (dangerous due to the potential for overheating) but that the likelihood of properly re-engaging a correctly chosen gear ratio and engine speed at the bottom of the hill is dramatically decreased. Even doing so in a relatively precise manner requires a great deal of work by the transmissions synchromesh. Manual transmission vehicles have been driven with the engine used as breaks for a very long time and modern fuel injection systems are smart enough to not reply with increased fuel consumption based purely on RPM. Taking a car out of gear and coasting down a hill increases driving complexity and the loss of control can be disconcerting - requiring driver attention and wear and tear on the transmission and breaks most likely not offset by fuel savings. Drivers should not have to break continuously while going down a hill. Drivers should also be able to quickly respond to obstacles should they need to accelerate. Again - the price and potential of transmission, clutch or break repair is most likely much higher than the fuel savings. This is not even considering the time lost from work or life due to waiting for a shop to fix your car. This is not considering the burden to family or friends who often are asked for rides to get the car to the shop. Towing expenses are not factored in. While I don't doubt that you may be perfectly capable of managing all these issues in calm driving conditions, I'd argue any but a professional driver's ability to do so in an accident-averse situation. These techniques are not, in my opinion, ones that should be made part of the fuel cost scare. The savings are minimal, at best, and most drivers have other things to worry about, not to mention the potential wear to breaks, clutches, and transmissions that unexperienced drivers might put on their cars. I think the site is good, somewhat useful, and educational. I also believe that it is partially based on some information that, while many years ago may have been true, is not totally applicable in the current time - at least not in our country. Please consider anyway mentioning in a bit more detail the dangers in going to neutral when going down a hill. In my opinion it is not a good idea in any modern vehicle. Best wishes to you and thank you for helping us all be aware of not only the cost of fuel, but the environmental impacts as well. Promoting biodiesel and other alternatives may also be something to pursue. A wiki where others may add tips or further discussion might also be an interesting addition to your site. Take care and I'd be happy to discuss this further or hear your response or words regarding those above that you've taken from other conversations. I claim to be no expert, just suggesting some new information and technologies that might be interesting to research further. Cyrus Yunker --... ...-- -.. . -.- -... ..--- ..- .-. .- =Cyrus -- cyrus [ ] at [ ] 80d [ ] dot [ ] On-On! org [ ] ========================================================================== From: To: "'Cyrus Yunker'" Subject: RE: issues w/ website content Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:09:12 +1000 Hi Cyrus, Thanks very much for your note. Very interesting stuff to be sure. I think I agree with most of what you say, and I'll pop some of your feedback into the pitfalls section later today. There is just one point I would make; Some of the fuel savings are not trivial as many suggest. I am not saying these savings are not offset by additional wear on the engine/brakes/suspension etc. I drive a fuel injected Toyota rav 4 (manual) with vvi electric injection, in spite of which, I use (anecdotally) 50-60% petrol employing the techniques listed on the page. I will definitely be investigating the injected fuel issue further, as several people have written in with similar information. I have never been an 'active' activist, I am not the kind of person to 'take to the streets' and 'march against tyranny'. But I am starting to realise that I can choose where and how I spend my dollar, and for a very small amount of money I can also disseminate ideas widely. Drive far was originally started as a bit of a joke. I was trying hard to resist the urge to play an online game that I play, and it was too early to go to bed. I had been toying with these fuel saving idea's for a little while, so in about 2 hours I put the site up. I thought it was important to point out the negative aspects of these tips as well as the positive. You'll notice some have no requirement even to have a car (and some rely on that strategy) I have no bias, no vested interests, nor any products I am pushing. Having said that, now that I have paid for the domain and popped a little bit up there, it occurs to me that there may be an opportunity to put useful information up. I am intending in the next few days to write some small precis on the different alternative energy technologies, what they are, where they are at etc. as well as adding forum/ wiki/ other features. The problem I face is twofold, firstly time (not such a huge issue as this stuff is quick to write) but mainly audience. When lifehacker picked up the site I had a 1800 visitor spike in one day. The last 3 days have averaged about 100 (and falling) to a base of about 40 a day that come from an experiment in paying a traffic builder to send visitors to my site. I can tell from descrepancies between the builder, google and my own logs that the traffic builder is not sending legitimate traffic to my site, and I will not be renewing the service. The thing is, I am not sure I should invest my (precious) personal time getting this stuff out there if there is no one to listen. I would appreciate a link from your site (your comments can be positive or negative) and any other assistance you may be able to give in building visitors. Additionally, I would like to place information on the site that is pithy and helpful both to save money on fuel, improve the environment etc, and to some extent protest the price of petrol. If you would like to contribute (beyond what you kindly already have) any new idea's or gizmos or techniques that would assist, I would be most thankful. Thanks again for your note. Chris .. / -.- -. --- .-- / -. --- / -- --- .-. ... .